Problems with the Unity!
Posted by Brit Windel on July 3, 2009
So I posted the Letter that Presiding Bishop Hanson wrote to pastors explaining his prayer for unity of the churches and that we ‘remain’ unified. As I said in my post here, sadly we are already being divided because of this whole thing. Which isn’t surprising and actually is why I’m writing.
I found it interesting that we preach unity when we are heading in a direction that for more than 2000 years has been unacceptable. We are going against foundational teaching and practical history for the human race for several 1000s of years. I have issues with playing the Unity card for this reason.
“This is what God wants to happen and to be unified you have to agree with us” ~ unity card
“We are heading this direction and we hope and ‘pray’ you stay with us, even though we are going against ‘common’ Christian practice for 1600 years” ~ Unity Card
The leadership, it seems, of the ELCA have decided what the voice of God is telling the people of the ELCA and that we need to head down this road. For the record this issue has been addressed before and was shot down then, ‘maybe we didn’t pray hard enough then’ or ‘maybe those voting just aren’t close enough to the heart of God to know this is what should happen’! What I don’t understand about meetings and deliberations like this is, why if something doesn’t get passed in favor of something, that maybe shouldn’t be visited again, gets brought back with more force the next time.
I’m not going to get into the Human Sexuality talk about how right or wrong it is….at least not yet…. I wanted to talk about the use of the word Unity and use some biblical passages that talk about it.
Psalm 133:1 How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in
Unity!
John 17. 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in
you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have
sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let
the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved
me.
ROM 12:4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these
members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to
all the others.
1 Cor12 12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all
its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Now with this verse here I wanted to point out something… in 13 where it says we were all baptized in by the one Spirit, this is not a Unitarian statement meaning that all have been baptized by the Spirit. Paul is speaking to a group of people and explaining to them why they should be and remain unified as they have come under the common love&belief of their Savior, whether they be Jew, Greek or Slave or Free, they all belong in that same commune!
Now I could put several more up, but thought I would just go the big Unity verse found in Ephesians 4.1-16. You can read it here! A beautiful reminder of how we are called to grow and that we do grow together in unity. What I find very interesting and something to call everyone to a reminder is 14-31!
These verses call to mind how we are not called to live. Unity means that some are called to lose some aspects of their SINFUL diversity! We cannot just simply say yes we are unified and clean and continue to live in sin! Ephesians 4. 19Having lost all sensitivity; they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more… we are called in unity to give things up. Christ in His Unity with God gave up His very life to unify us, to purge us and make us clean….
Ephesians4.22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
In calling people to repentance and to put off the ‘old self’, to be ‘made new’ how is this unity we are calling the ELCA to really any of the above. If we hold the Bible to be true and to be Gods story and love to us, we cannot pick and chose those verses that simply help our cause and case. Anyways I’m starting to get into my thoughts on the whole issue so I’m going to back off.
We need to be careful in how use the Unity Card. Just as the Jews got in tremendous trouble with whom they unified themselves with the OT we too have to be careful with how and who we are unified with people… God does call us to be of closely the same mind… if we have brothers and sisters who are not following or believing in the same Kingdom and love of God… we SHOULD not be unified with them
We are called to be ambassadors of reconciliation to the world through Christ, just as Christ wanted all to see His Father and experience the true Shalom-Kingdom of God… some walked away (Matthew 19.16-22) there is a price in coming a giving up of things/ lusts, desires. The completion of Matthew 19.22-30 explains more on that
Ron Amundson said
Thought provoking
I read another entry earlier this week from the other side on the social statement, and it brought to light many of the same issues on unity. I do have some questions though, but do want to keep the focus on the unity thing. So onto some questions/comments.
This is a difficult statement… “God does call us to be of closely the same mind… if we have brothers and sisters who are not following or believing in the same Kingdom and love of God… we SHOULD not be unified with them”
The LCMS and WELS use similar reasoning to justify closed communion, and even prayer with others outside their denom is prohibited…. is that going to far? Is that in effect failing to recognize that a Presbyterian, or Catholic, or Baptist, much les an ELCA member is not part of the body of Christ? What about differences in Bibliology, or even Christology? Where do we draw the line?
Secondly, “These verses call to mind how we are not called to live. Unity means that some are called to lose some aspects of their SINFUL diversity! We cannot just simply say yes we are unified and clean and continue to live in sin!” Is this not counter to simul justice et pecatur? Is this a repeat of the pietistic theology debacle of years past? Where would Luther stand? Where would Melancthon, or even Walther stand?
Its a difficult question… certainly Hauge and his fellow US pietists thought they were correct, yet we split because many others felt they were in error, albeit for the most part we have re-unified.
Brit Windel said
great questions Ron. thanks for stopping by the blog as well!
in response to your first question… i don’t have the answers… do i think the LCMS&WELS are wrong in how they do/or don’t do communion. i personally do yes. from personal belief to deny communion/lords supper to a brother of sister of any denomination is pretty sinful in that it elitist and segregating! its an easy way to make sure you don’t give communion to someone who is not a believer but makes it hard to then distinguish between a sister or brother from another camp.
secondly simul justus et peccator would only apply to to someone who recognizes their need for justice/grace in their lives. I worship with a lot of ‘lutherans’ who don’t even believe they are sinners… if you don’t believe your a sinner, do you believe you have any need for grace and forgiveness? there is a greater question here indeed… Paul calls us several times to the reminder of being changed in His grace to not be captive of the sins of old and to be transformed. Jesus to the woman about to stoned “go and Sin no more’…tons of theology to dive in there…
I personally believe we are called to find that balance of kingdom in our lives… as humans who institutionalize everything we will fail here and there but are called to work through it all… where the ELCA is trying to work towards (even in its purist of love) is not of the God of the Bible or theological/historical principals that have been held true for 1600 years… did we/they miss the boat so far back then? that now we have to try and fix that
anyways thanks for your questions Ron. I hope you will continue to visit and challenge with great questions
Kaitlin said
What’s interesting to me is the fact that you question the idea that we’re going against what Christians argued was wrong for more than 2000 years, and yet you leave out the fact that Christians for years used the bible, and still do use the bible to subordinate women. This argument, that we’re going against “foundational teaching and practical history for the human race for several 1000s of years” does not suffice the reasoning behind why we should continue to discriminate against gay and lesbian people in the church and throughout our society.
Brit Windel said
Hey Kaitlin, first I want to thank you for stopping by my website and hope you continue to visit and chime in (when I get around to blogging)
Your argument about women’s rights and them being subordinate is a great analogy of the Church being in sin and miss guided in its interpretation of scripture and culture. I would still say its flawed in that, culturally and biblically the fundamental teaching of of women being submissive was never fully grounded and wrong as we know today. Through proper study we see that those few comments made by Paul were taken out of context as he was speaking to a group of ‘christian’ women and churches who were causing problems. still doesn’t change the message of obedience shared to men and women to be faithful and respectful and submissive to one another. sinful man takes scripture to make it say what he/she will and we try to make God in our image.
That is the problem at the heart…we want God to think and be like us. We want him to be ok with our sins and our actions which He is not.
I would ask you define discriminate for me. I personally have lots of gay friends (not many lesbian…not sure why) and we exist in ‘tension’ as they know i love and care for them but do not approve of their lifestyle choice… i do not approve for LOTS of reasons… biblically it is wrong on so many levels… God is against it…old testament and New, it distorts the image of God and order in which he called things to be (making man and women for a loving relationship to magnify His love for us((side note I am equally if not more so mortified at heterosexual relationships that do not glorify God in their action as well))… and if we don’t believe and have trust in God being in control enough of His word to have made sure it said what it needed to then we don’t believe in an all powerful God.
I am all for social reconciliation in our day and age… but i can not acknowledge their lifestyle as anything other than sinful, just as i must say to everyone they are sinful beings despite their best actions… the difference is with sexuality it become an issue with faithfulness and as Paul says is a sin against the body, internally not just externally… it serves no ‘natural’ purpose… the scientific studies i have read on the act of homo-sexual behavior is damaging to the body (more so with men mind you), find it interesting that even if it is love that they say they have for one another, the body rejects the act by causing disease and other harmful things (in a HIGH PERCENTAGE)
So sorry for a long response to say that culturally, historically, traditionally, and Biblically it has never been an ‘acceptable’ practice in almost every culture through time… just because our time has decided what seems correct doesn’t mean that it is
All a man’s ways seem innocent to him,
but motives are weighed by the LORD Proverbs 16.3
I could keep on with my objections with what has happened this weekend in the ELCA… I will continue to call it sin because my King and Savior died for the wholeness of each man and women in all of our sins… I will continue to reach out with love and truth to the men and women who would call themselves GLBT’s as God puts them in my life, and in love tell them Gods Love/Law for entering His Kingdom under the blood of His Son which is through repentance.
Blessings and prayers with you and us all as we wrestle with Gods Truth and mans interpretation of living IT daily
Ben mason said
To Kaitlin,
I think it is important to understand that the fundamental discrepancy within the homosexuality debate is that the argument for homosexual behavior as normative cannot be reconciled to Scripture. As Brit pointed out, the biggest difference between this issue and the issue of ordaining women is that there is an argument for ordaining women in Scripture. We have examples of women that Paul had put into a position of leadership. There are examples from the Old Testament of women in leadership. There are no corresponding examples lifting up those who practice homosexuality. In all of Scripture, homosexuality in practice codifies the epitome of humanity’s depravity. You will be careful to notice that I delineate between homosexual orientation and practice because that this the issue in the ELCA.
The greater and far more dangerous loss is the loss of Scriptural authority. With the movement of the ELCA, a precedent has been set proclaiming that the word of God is no longer relevant to the life of the Church. This is the far greater tragedy because in losing the Truth we have lost nothing less than the only thing that could possibly unite us, and I fear that the question of unity is, at this point a foregone conclusion. If we accept that Scripture is irrelevant, we have ceased to be the Church, and all this discussion is pointless.